The big spruce tree down by the creek has kept good shelter over me from the night's snowfall, but I had begun to feel the clearing skies and falling temps. I packed up the bag & pad and got rolling on the creek with completely numb fingers. I didn't try to solve the problem because, fortunately, my cabin was not far ahead.
A great night of sleep, outside, breathing fresh air, by myself, under a big spruce tree next to a snow-covered creek... with my fatbike.
What I learned:
1. A tent isn't necessary for camping in winter, in most places. There's almost always a place to tuck your bag into that provides some sort of shelter from either wind and/or falling snow, of which the latter is less of a problem than the former, as it's usually cold enough to stay frozen and not make you wet. Although, tents do hold in heat, resulting in a warmer environment to sleep in, keep the snow out, stop the wind, and provide peace of mind for some people while sleeping out in the dark & scary woods. They take time to set-up and take up space on the bike, as well as add weight. A tent might not be necessary, but it's probably worth the weight if you want to truly camp and not just get a little shut-eye for a few hours.
2. I need a better winter sleeping pad. While I didn't feel the cold, frozen ground, I did feel the hard, frozen ground. There is not enough padding in those two thin, foam pads rolled up under the handlebars. I like to sleep on my side and this made for a pretty uncomfortable rest. Plus, when I rolled them up in the morning, I found I had melted the snow down to the ground. More comfort and a bit more insulation are needed.
3. I need warmer boots; these, specifically. My Keen Summit County boots are great for day rides and down to about -20F for a while, but they're not warm enough for camping at -30F. Sure, vapor-barrier socks (1 gal Ziploc freezer bag) work well, but I don't want to mess with them for short rides.
4. I had the big dry sack that holds my sleeping bag strapped down pretty well under the seat, such that it's a real pain to remove. I was able to get it on the bike real tightly in my warm cabin, but knew that it could be a problem in the cold, dark morning. Yep, it was. Stuffing my sleeping bag back in that bag at 30 below while it was strapped to the bike is too challenging. I'm putting the rack back on so I can stuff the bag on the ground, then simply strap the bag to the rack. Much easier and worth the weight of the rack, as things need to be as simple as possible in these temps.
5. I need to find a way to have warm hands when the inside of the poagies are -30F at the start of a ride, i.e., in the morning after camping out. Maybe handwarmers? But both times I've tried them, they've failed; duds. I've lost faith in them and don't want to rely on something working, then get myself in hard times when they don't. Problem being, hands don't produce much heat, so it takes forever (impossible?) to warm up poagies when they're -30F inside. More research & testing needed.
6. For more than one night in temps around zero or below, vapor-barrier clothing for sleeping is a must. My bag was soaking wet when I pulled it out of the stuff sack, after getting back to my cabin. I can't imagine it would keep me warm on a second night in those temps. I figured this would be the case, but wanted to test it to know for sure. Maybe just wear the VBL clothing while riding then get in the bag? And then straight out in the morning? Again, more testing needed.
7. If you sleep next to a tree, it makes for a nice solid object for pushing your foot into cold, hard boots in the morning :)
Hey Josh, thanks for taking the time to write up your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting article on VBLs here: http://www.andrewskurka.com/advice/technique/vaporbarrierliners.php.
It seems to me that it would make sense to wear a VBL on the upper body at least. Perhaps taking a half-way approach of just wearing a VBL shirt might be a option (half-way as in between no VBL clothing and total VBL suit of pants, shirt, booties etc). At least this way, you're cutting perspiration from half of you body getting into your sleeping bag.
Thanks, Rob. That's funny - I've recommended Andrew's write-up many times to others and have read it over many times, myself. Great minds think alike. Thanks for your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteNow, I just have to figure out how to implement the VBL into my winter biking clothing, which I have nailed for everything from 20 to -40. Start from scratch, I guess.
Thanks for posting this! I'm currently looking into getting up to Alaska for some winter biking but I'm from Los Angeles. I haven't got the foggiest of how to prepare for that. I've been looking into a -20 bag, but I'm unclear about the clothes you have to wear.
ReplyDeleteFor example, what kind of layering is needed. I'm guessing that wearing bibs wouldn't be smart with the amount of clothes worn. Anything else you can share would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Don't let being from sunny SoCal stop you! I know a couple that moved up here from SoCal permanently and are loving it, plus there is another guy and gal that have gone winter biking with me, without pain or suffering! The finest -20 bag for the money is the Expedition by REI. You could spend more money and get a little nicer bag (barely), but why? I own one and like it nearly as much as my three Marmot bags, including the -40 CWM.
ReplyDeleteAs far as clothes, you wear way less than you'd think. Watch for a write-up I'm doing on www.fat-bike.com about clothing for winter biking. It will also appear on here via link.
Essentially, light base layers top & bottom with wind shedding top & bottom over it all. Focus on keeping your toes, nose, & fingers warm. Balaclava or wool neck gaiter pulled over the face, poagies for the hands, and mukluks for the feet if it's really cold or just warm winter sport boots, like Keen Summit Countys.
The article should be finished soon. Thanks for stopping by. Feel free to e-mail me with more questions.
Josh
Thanks Josh. I've looked at the REI bag, but it doesn't get favorable reviews. I did order some Keen Summit Countys which are on sale right now at REI. Looking forward to your article.
ReplyDeleteI would recommend the Western Mountaineering Puma, then. Made in Cali. Top shelf stuff.
ReplyDeleteRandom thoughs from non-biker but having some winter experiences of my own:
ReplyDelete5. If poagies are easy to remove from the bike just stuff them inside your sleeping bag (in a drysack?) for the night or under your puffy jacket in the morning to warm them up. Works for boot liners. If not, a more troublesome but well working approach might be two 500ml Nalgenes full of hot water to warm up the poagies in the morning (works also as part of the days hydration). At least works for skiing boots.
6. I tested the moisture accumulation with my winter down bag (1420g of down, good at least down to -33C, haven't encountered colder temps here) last January. I don't use VBLs and during the five consecutive nights the bag collected about 500g of ice but was still relatively comfortable around -20C so at least couple of nights without VBLs should be okay. Another approach is to have a thin synthetic filled bag on top of a thicker down bag to collect the moisture thus keeping the down dry & warm for a long time but that's heavier and bulkier approach than using a VBL.
Great idea to put the poagies in the bag. Never thought about it, honestly, as I usually try to get moving as soon as possible to get warm. Usually, you have to take a number 1 when you wake up, so grabbing the poagies off the bike wouldn't be a hassle. Return to the warmth of the bag with them for a few more minutes.
ReplyDeleteI almost never take the time to cook, boil, etc, right away in the morning, but the hot bottle trick certainly works well for warming things up.
Regarding the VBL or moisture issue, would it be lighter to do VBL? I wonder... It might be lighter, and possibly more practical, to do a lighter down bag with synthetic overbag. I've been thinking about trying this technique for some time and just recently decided to bring back my sleeping bag arsenal to REI, in order to set it up for this versatile approach. I'll probably do a MYOG synthetic bivy bag project like Steve House did for alpine climbing. Google it.
Thanks, Korpi!
Regarding the whole winter sleeping system, an actual VBL bag inside a down bag works very well. I have the HotSac VBL made by Western Mountaineering, but I think Sierra Designs makes one as well. I use the -20 down bag from Big Agnes, which has the pad insert instead of bottom insulation to save weight and eliminate the possibility of rolling off.
ReplyDeleteWith the VBL bag, it adds at least an extra 15 degrees to your bag's rating, if not more, and weighs less than 5 ounces. The only down side is that it's hard to dry out socks or other clothing when you're cinched into a humid environment.
Another warmth-adding, low-weight item is a REAL mylar space blanket (not the plastic wrapped "survival" blankets). You could wrap it around your bag if sleeping outside of a tent, or line your tent floor with it to help reflect heat that would otherwise be lost through conduction.
There's drawbacks to the VBL bag, though. I sold my WM HotSac, as it limits the ability to use the clothing you bring along to stay warm in conjunction with the bag. And, I HATED exposing my wet body in just base layers to -40F temps!!!
ReplyDeleteBy wearing VBL clothing instead, you contain the moisture AND use all the clothing to supplement the bag. Two biggest advantages: this allows you to bring a lighter bag and you simply get in your bag at night and get out in the morning, without the need to change clothes and expose yourself to the cold (if you wear the vbl clothing during the day).
To dry your socks, etc, put them between the VBL and the bag, where the body heat can dry them, but the moisture will go into the bag, although it will be very little.
The space blanket on the outside of the bag would end up drenching the bag, as it would be a VBL for the entire bag!
For a few nights, I'd much prefer going without a VBL and using a synthetic overbag. For anything longer, however, VBL is the only way to go in the cold.
Thanks for the insight, Steve.
I disagree with the probability of a space blanket saturating a bag, so long as there's very limited moisture emanating from the bag, or none at all, which would require the use of a VBL inside the bag. Space blankets aren't air tight, so it would only serve to supplement protection from the weather. It's the same design philosophy as the bunny boot: insulation sandwiched between two VBLs.
ReplyDeleteWhen I have a synthetic bag, I wear my wet socks over my dry ones, which is highly effective at drying them out overnight, even after you've just wrung them out after fording a stream. When it comes to down bags for winter use, utilizing this process might be OK for a weekend trip, but anything longer would compromise the down...and there's nowhere near enough thermal energy in Alaska, whether its in the Interior or down here in Anchorage, to dry out a down bag in the winter.
I agree with your philosophy on VBL clothing, and I've been thinking of getting some for a while now. I just need to plan a good week-long trip into the hills to provide the incentive.
OH! You meant double VBL. Ok, yeah, definitely would work with a VBL inside, too. Sorry, I didn't catch that from your write-up.
ReplyDeleteYou're right... A 'weekend' trip is about the maximum duration for a down bag below 20F without the use of a VBL or drying it out, which, yeah, definitely can't do here in Northern AK... down by you... maaaaybe.
Good discussion!
This should be a good winter sleeping pad: http://www.multimat.uk.com/product.asp?Ref=4&Label=Expedition&Nav=1&ProductRef=27, Multimat Expedition Extreme XL. It's rated for as low as -60C / -76F. I recently purchased one and I'm eagerly waiting for a cold night.
ReplyDeleteJosh: VBL is probably the lightest and most effective way to manage moisture.
ReplyDeleteSorry Toni, but I think that the -60C/+60C is just for the material and pure marketing. The pad will not be warm enough alone for any serious winter use. It's under 10mm thick and the tog-value is equal to R-value of about 1,5. General wisdom says that in winter sleeping pad should provide a R-value of 5 of greater (the greater not beeing necessarely much warmer). Add a Ridgerest Solar and you'd be fine. The most light & compact stand-alone winter pad might be the new Neoair.
I use personally 2x10mm of CCF with a regular Ridgerest in between. Takes up a lot of space but it's very warm and foolproof.
Oh, I definitely agree, Korpi. I just think it would be interesting to look into the different weights of VBL, down, synthetic, & combo, both before and after, for varying durations of trips.
ReplyDeleteYou are probably right Korpi, but it will be still interesting to test how it works. I will not use it alone, I have Halti Airlite 450 that I will put inside a bivvy with a sleeping bag.
ReplyDeleteGreat idea to put the poagies in the bag. Never thought about it, honestly, as I usually try to get moving as soon as possible to get warm. Usually, you have to take a number 1 when you wake up, so grabbing the poagies off the bike wouldn't be a hassle. Return to the warmth of the bag with them for a few more minutes.
ReplyDeleteI almost never take the time to cook, boil, etc, right away in the morning, but the hot bottle trick certainly works well for warming things up.
Rich
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